I saw a video today of a debate involving charismatic professional Muslim and sugar-coated Islamist, Hamza Tzortzis. In it, Mr Tzortzis kindly explains why and when it’s okay to have sex with nine year old girls. Apparently, it’s okay if she’s “physically fit”, “emotionally” and “mentally ready” and if it’s “socially acceptable”. (The horror starts at 1hr 58 mins.)
Incredibly, I think this would be less disgusting if he’d just said he thought it was sometimes okay to rape children, and left it at that. Somehow though, he’s taken just about the most vile and morally reprehensible statement, and made things even worse by trying to justify it. What on earth does “physically fit” mean? How does one decide how much damage they will do to a nine year old by raping them, before doing so? I can only assume “physically fit” means “they look ready”, which translates to “I want to fuck them”. It’s beyond disgusting.
My skin crawled as I heard the terms “mentally ready” and “emotionally ready”. Ready to be raped by a grown man? What child is “ready” for that? Presumably their readiness too is decided by a grown man, or perhaps a committee of grown men.
And then we have “socially acceptable”. It becomes okay to have sex with a child if it’s “socially acceptable”. Hamza has a problem with the apparently absurd “arbitrary” ages of consent found in “secular law”, but if sex with kids is “socially acceptable”, there’s no problem. As long as grown men are okay with it, that’s the main thing.
Even for Tzortzis, this brazen defence of the indefensible is incredible. Not that a nine year old can consent to sex anyway, but, where in his list of criteria is the little girl’s view on the matter? Pah, that’s irrelevant! Allah, and grown men, know best.
Just to seal the deal, Hamza informs us that not only was it socially acceptable for Mohammad to rape a child, but that “her father” and “tribe” were down with it too, so, I guess it would almost be unethical not to go ahead with it, right? This takes the objectification of young girls to an extreme I don’t think I’ve ever witnessed before.
At least, one might think, this vomit inducing display might cause a degree of cognitive dissonance too great to bare for the audience. Perhaps Hamza’s sugar-coating might taste sufficiently rancid to throw up some objections from his fans in the room. But, wait: where is the scathing condemnation, where is the stunned silence, the revulsion, the protests, the heckles, walk-outs and cries of “shame”? None. Nothing. Instead there are rapturous applause, whoops and takbirs.
What the heck kind of perfect society is this that Hamza and co. are trying to sell, and that vocal young Muslims in the audience seem to want to buy? A society where nine year old girls can be raped by old men, but can’t play with boys, ride a bike, listen to music, dance, or wear what they want?
Hamza Tzortzis is a popular Islamic apologist among young Muslims in the UK. His organisation specifically targets universities and student Islamic societies, and when he justifies old men having sex with nine year-olds, members of his audience clap, cheer and declare that god, and apparently Hamza, are the greatest. I despair.
(H/T The Rationaliser – https://twitter.com/TheRationaliser)
Just Another Confused Ape 
Reblogged this on The Syed Atheist.
Syed Atheist… can’t wait to read and have a good laugh at your blog.
Yes, it’s hilarious when little girls get raped – really a side-splitter. heck they should put it up with the prime time comedies on TV.
You have no empathy and it is disgusting. Even worse that it’s a fantasy draining you of your compassion and feeling for your fellow humans (women included in this group)
I really hope you come to realize that all this stuff you’re defending is made up – that cult leaders use the idea of ‘god’ to gain power, wealth, and sex. You’re nothing more than a tool for them to maintain their position lording over you while you tithe and scrape and bow and make excuses for harming and bullying others, the weaker and vulnerable in your society.
It’s really sickening and you need to grow up.
Being forced to do anything you don’t want to do in general is a form of suffering, actual rape should never ever be condoned or applauded, but you have to understand he is coming at it from the view that we’re all just animals, when a girl starts menstruating, that is nature telling us the child is capable of having a child and procreating, just because in certain cultures we’ve made a strict black and white line of when you are legally ”allowed” to go on sexual adventures, does not mean that their is not a gray area, there are always gray areas, probably not nine though lol, that’s a tad extreme, but in order to understand what him, or anybody else is trying to communicate, especially from a more ”contraversial” stand point, you need to see the side of many different trains of thought, instead of being a typical human piece of garbage and labeling everything right and wrong based on the consensus of a society who has obtained most of their view points and rationale without any critical thinking on said subjects at any point in their pointless opinionated existence.
Because raping a child is funny? You’re sick in the head.
” A society where nine year old girls can be raped by old men, but can’t play with boys…” is enough to describe the hypocrisy of Islamist, what is a mature girl if she leaves the house of her father to get married off to an older man who-in many ways-takes the role of a father rather than a partner?
Deism….don’t you see the root issue here? The old f*cks want these little girls to themselves…these two are not unrelated AT ALL.
Distinguishing culture from religion is nigh impossible for those who choose to be blind. Those who are ignorant to the teachings of Islam are comfortable in their contempt of something they know absolutely nothing about. The Holy Qur’an never, never instructs, permits or encourages the heinous behavior towards children as described in this article. Molesting children is despicable and intolerable, but what is most despicable are the lies told about the religion by those so-called Muslims that have little to no understanding of the true Islamic teachings. They knowingly spew such filth either to garner 15 minutes of fame or just to prick the nerves of reactionaries who have not, and never intend to read The Holy Qur’an for themselves. Islam does not teach this. These heinous crimes were not committed by The Holy Prophet (SAWS). Mr. Tzortzis is a liar. It saddens and angers me to know that the problem with all religions lies not in their teachings, but at the feet of the people who intentionally misinterpret those teachings to justify their foul thoughts and deeds that permeate their culture.
Razia if you want to Islam to prosper and survive you need to stand up and be counted.
Mohammed did not marry Aisha when she was nine? The only thing worse than the tradition of child rape and domestic violence in Islam are the professional apologists like yourself whose claims fly in the face of sanity.
so you are telling me that our beloved prophet did not marry a 6 year old and then took her virginity as soon as she hit puberty ???
The real problem with religious bigotry is the readiness to believe the worst about other religions. What, for example, is the basis for believing what anyone says about the Holy Prophet Mohammed (saw) condoning sex with a 9-year old? Where?
Unfortunately for you Raza.. HE DID. and.. even worse the Quran specifically permits it. 65:4 see Tafheem al Quran (Maududi) on this verse.
If you are sincere in your belief that Muhammad did not do these things, then I’ll extend some grace to you, but now, you KNOW that he did…and that the Quran does teach/permit it. So..
You have just expended the permitted oxygen consumption at my end. You are worth no more.
Surely this can’t be real?
Hi ! I viewed some of the debate and especially the part about the age if Ayesha. The arguments raised against this were a little weak. There are much stronger ones.
i) Mohammad engaged/contracted the marriage when Aysha was 6. REASON. Her father was a war lord/military man of great value in a political battle to spread Islam.
ii) This fact demonstrates that Muhammad ‘commodified’ women/Ayesha for the sake of his personal political ambition.
iii) We know now that she could not give any informed consent and also that the Pre Frontal Cortex (to do with ‘consequences’ ) is not developed until the 20s. Thus she could not have known what she was doing and therefore Allah apparently forgot or did not know about this psychological fact that he himself created.
iv) Muhammad was 53 !!!! when he consummated /had intercourse with this child.
v) The Quran teaching on Divorce in Surah 65 is clear that a man may marry, consummate and then divorce a PRE pubescent child and this is made clear by a hadith in Bukhari and in the Tafsir of Maududi in Tafheem Al Quran on verse 4 of that chapter note *13 http://www.tafheem.net/tafheem.html
The Hadith in Bukhari supports Maududi’s interpretation as it specifically mentions that the girls mentioned who have not ‘yet’ received their periods are “immature” Bukhari :: Book 7 :: Volume 62 :: Hadith 63 http://www.quranexplorer.com/Hadith/English/Hadith/bukhari/007.062.063.html
That should equip anyone to enter such a debate in future. I’m happy to take that job on 🙂
PS.. I note your comment also “I despair”.. no.. on the contrary, that kind of audience needs some powerful oratory to combat it… I can deliver just that. If you want to know more..or.. move with some people who are more active in the anti Islamic field… contact me via the email address that you will be able to see, but I will not put in this response. Cheers.
now they have just passed a bill in iranian parliament that adopted girls could be used as a sex object by their fathers (supposedly fathers!!) and the baby that may be fruited by this has the full rights and should not considered as a bastered (for whom wholeheartedly defend this sickness called religion there are still sagregation such bastered kids in islamic religion and cummunities)
anyways having said that if i myself go and adopt a two years old from orphanage i am in full rights to have sex with her and father her child at any age before i gave her away on marriage
also, fyi there is no limitation of having sex with babies as you can read in shiyat books of guidance under some circuimstances you can sexually release yourself with a new born!! go and search kheomeinis books of ethics!!
I haven’t read a more brain dead sensational article.
H. Tzortzis very clearly said, Spain allows at 12, and other places, at 14, 15, 17 and so on. What age would the atheist side like to present? The atheist side had no answer.
The best part was actually 19:34.
That is arbitrary, ie whimsical. Secular law actually cannot say if sex with children is even wrong, because nothing is set in stone.
The idea of child marriage is wrong comes from religious and cultural heritage.
Now if one of you white sassy folk had to visit a country like India, there are girls who earn for their families and study. They do get married, although they are not muslim.
So I think this is more islamophobic than intellectual. Hilarious this article.
Perhaps the same challenge can be forwarded to the author. What age would you like marriage to be allowed?
And don’t give me the legal legislation crap. Give me a logical answer.
To me it’s always 18. Not because of law, but because I always think that the girls should at least have a chance to complete their primary and secondary educations. Only when they are educated, will they be able to truly differentiate what’s good and bad. Any age under 18 (if they are so called emotionally and mentally prepared) obviously is either lust or just a feeling of responsibility, but no love. Anything other than that is considered rape.
Makes me wonder how old your particular fiancee’ is. I hope there are at least 2 digits in her age. The idea child marriage is wrong comes from biology, psychology and intellectual maturity (which, needless to say pedophiles are incapable of possessing).
We can say that sex with a child is wrong as it harms the child – both mentally and physically. Atheists and free thinkers can look at a situation and find what is best for the child and will cause the least harm and allow them to grow up unhindered by psychological trauma. There’s a difference between forcing a child to take medicine they don’t like, or go to school when they are lazy – and making them fuck an old beardy man who is insane enough to tell them that god wants them to fuck a kid, when the kid isn’t cool with it.
There is a huge difference between a young person deciding to have sex with another young person and being forced to have sex with someone 40 years their senior.
The age of consent should fall where the body is ready to engage in intercourse without injury (NOT 9 YEARS OLD) the conscience can decide what it’s doing (NOT 9 YEARS OLD) and the brain can understand consequences and determine action (again. NOT 9 YEARS OLD)
To sit around and stroke your beard and call us ‘sassy white folks’ because we don’t think you should be sticking your dick into children is both terrifying and hilarious. Honestly. If your ‘holy book’ didn’t say anything about moo-non-hominid raping a child, what would YOU say the age of consent was? What age do you think it’s appropriate for YOUR daughters to be raped by old men? Do you even stop to think about what they would feel about this?
I have a feeling you DON’T. “truthsmaster” stopped thinking around 600 AD and let brainwashed morons do the thinking for him. …and it’s really pathetic.
Best comment so far. I 100% agree with you, very well said.
It is time to evolve and stop being morons. I 100% agree with you too!.
Uhm, no, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age, the minimum age to marry in Spain is not 12, but 18 (16 with parental consent). The same in Greece. In fact, it’s 18/16 pretty much all over Europe with very few exceptions. But the point about having an age restriction isn’t that there is an absolute and clear cut age when you’re mature enough to marry. Of course there isn’t. Kids mature at different rates and some might arguably be mature enough at 15 while others aren’t ready to marry until they’re 20. But in order to simplify our lives and protect those who clearly are too young, we have to set the limit somewhere hopefully reasonable, possibly making exceptions when the situation warrants it.
That’s why we have the concept of an Age of Majority as well, the age of which you are considered an adult and no longer in need of a guardian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority). This is almost universally set to 18 +/- 2 years. It’s around that age that most humans’ brains have developed well enough for them to be considered responsible for their own actions, both with respect to themselves and others. Again, the rate by which each individual matures I’m sure can vary, but for practical reasons, we need to set the threshold somewhere and I’m pretty sure that I can say this much: Some kids may grow up quick, but you’re definitely not an adult by the age of 9.
As for the Age of Consent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent), that is a different issue altogether. It is basically there to protect a young person from being sexually abused by an older person, even if the younger person consents to the act. It is basically saying that you’re not old enough to make that consent and that the other person needs to be aware of this. It has historically been as low as 10-12 yo in the past (or undefined), but most countries today sets it between 14-18 yo. Regardless of legal status, I would venture to say that too much of an age gap typically is seen a lot more serious than the absolut ages of the participants. So if two youngsters of 13 and 15 (say) have sex, that might still be acceptable, but not so much if a 53 yo man has sex with a 9 yo girl.
Tzortzis lied. What a surprise! The legal age for marriage in Spain was 14 and the age of consent13. Both are raised to 16. This was agreed in principle by the Spanish parliament in2009 and came into force this month.
Girls who give birth before their late teens are more likely to suffer from obstetric fistula but I guess that does not matter to the type of turd who wishes to have sex with a child.
Hamza Tzortzis admits he was misinformed!
What age is inappropriate? At an age when the children are unable to defend themselves against unwanted sexual advances. At an age at which pregnancy would be physically harmful. At an age when the child’s frontal lobes are formed and can make a decision on if they want to be married, and if they want to be having sex. 9 years old, is not it.
Nobody should be having sex with anyone who is more than four years older than they are until they are 18.
Secular law cannot say if sex with children is wrong? Really? Ever hear of pedophilia? It is a crime, and you go to jail. So yes, secular law can say if sex with a child is wrong.
Religion has tried to make a lot of things that are morally reprehensible ok. Beating women. Slavery. Child rape. See how that goes? Those of us who are not brainwashed into a sick religion try to temper the negative effects that religion has.
Maybe you missed the news story of the child that was raped to death by her “husband”?
Any parent that would allow their child to suffer through this for “cultural” or “religious” reasons is guilty of child neglect and abuse. There is a reason why in the US no child under the age of 13 can be married – even with parental permission. Because sometimes, the parents are just as mentally sick as the child rapist.
LaFemmeAthee Thanks for your great answers to those sick bastards. 🙂
“Atheist” law is meaningless. How can a supposed Muslim invoke “atheist” law to justify Islamic law ???? Islamic law should be the leader not the lower level bottom feeding “worst case.” (But it is)
Absolutely sickening. We must never be silenced when criticising this behaviour. I’m sure most Muslims will be against child brides too. Unfortunately, some of their spokesmen are idiots. Secularism is the only way forward.
Chris, I must disagree there mate. “Secularism” is a foundation for nothing except moral confusion and diverse thinking on many issues. It offers nothing in terms of a foundation for ethics because it is based on the idea of biological evolution and according to the 3 universities where I studied Psychology (Yale, Harvard and MIT) we are just “organisms” neural networks, synapses, dendrites etc…attached to some muscle and bone. The only “law” that secularism can offer is.. sadly.. “Law of the jungle”. As FDR once said.. “Only a foolish optimist would deny the dark reality of the moment”…. and it’s true. I recommend you do some study of history and in particular the history of ideas. Begin from Christ, then to the enlightenment, and down to now. The enlightenment was nothing of the sort, it was a rebellion by academics like Voltaire and Rousseau who had moral problems. (check out Rousseau !!!) It was presupposed on the idea that all reasonable people would arrive at the same conclusions and solutions for the same problems. Welllll….that didn’t work out so good eh.. One mans cleared up back yard is another mans “Environmental devastation”. I would be remiss if I did not move from undermining to supplying.. and I suggest there is only ONE “law” by which human behavior can be guided for good society “Do for others as you would have them do for you” BUT… the problem is without a divine sanction for this ‘law’.. it’s meaningless sentimentality. “Love the Lord your God with all your heart” is the only command which legitimizes the 2nd one cited above. “Love your neighbour”.
What we, collectively, must do is be vigilant. Many live with Muslim neighbors. No problem. But, if you see a little girl who seems to be living with an older man, or anything of the sort, don’t assume your instincts are wrong and “surely, they could not be doing what it looks like they are doing”.And if anything is wrong, report it. Abuse of any kind is everyone’s business.
It’s like the author completely forgot that having sex with people above the age of 9 is as recent a construct as 150 years ago, out of the entire million year history of humanity. Technically, he’s more correct than you….
Yes, and people only lived until their mid 20’s. Should we kill everyone over that age because it was so 150 years ago?
It’s called progress, not regress.
But if you’re totally fine with 9 year olds being raped (sometimes to death) I suggest you seek mental help. You need it.
To me age is less the consideration than willingness – a child may or may not be able to say an informed yes, she can certainly say no, and from what I gather, does, when not coerced. Disrespecting the child’s clear wish in such a matter is abuse, regardless of culture and tradition.
A child can never consent to sex, or a marriage contract. That is the part of the point. A child’s wishes are not under consideration. They “wish” a lot of things that are harmful to them. It is our responsibility as a society and as parents to protect them from people who are child predators, and to protect them from other situations that would be harmful.
If you are trying to equate telling a child ‘no” as the same as child rape, you’re one sick person.
So tupid gril. you no that gilr ready for marry when she blead from mensttral. if girl blead at 15 she redy for mary. if she blead at 9 she reddy for marry and sexes incorse. you are stupd fucking law mean nothing and wrong.
You are disgusting.
Menstruation is not a sign of being ready to handle sex, or rape.
In fact, many young children are harmed by sex that young, both mentally and physically. And pregnancy is very dangerous at a young age.
Laws to mean something. It means you get to go to jail and be on a sex offender registry for raping and abusing children. That way, everyone can know what a sick, disgusting person you are.
It’s disgusting the excuses people are making in the defence of paedophilia. It’s wrong, full stop. No if, no buts, no they did it too hundreds of years ago. No excuses. It’s wrong, harmful, and evil.
And if certain grown men are so pathetic that they can’t get a willing mature woman to have sex with them, then maybe they should be asking what they need to improve about themselves instead of taking & raping a child like pathetic animals. And if they’re that pathetic that they can’t control themselves, then they’re calling themselves animals and need to be removed from society.
I have watched this debate, and can only describe your piece as a complete misinterpretation of Tzortsis’ views. Surely you would have been better off speaking to him yourself? I myself don’t completly agree with his views but I really feel this piece is unfair. Can someone please define ‘Islamist’ because from what I’m aware of it’s a term conjured up by our fantastically accurate British media.
Claire, you could just Google the term Islamist. Honestly.
We’ve provided transcript here: http://secularparty.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/not-shutting-up-about-child-marriage/
Nowaday, it’s NOT okay, simply because the age of majority (when a person is considered responsible for their actions, capable of owning property, capable of being fully prosecuted under the law, etc) has risen dramatically, in step with rising life expectancies and decreased responsibilities. And those rules aren’t arbitrary – a nine-year-old, twelve-year-old, etc simply doesn’t have the experience necessary to make informed life choices.
In the 7th century, it wasn’t at all unusual for a “child” to be considered legally responsible for their actions – in fact, the very concept of childhood didn’t really start spreading until the 17th century. The age of majority coincided with the age of consent in Islam. Once a person hit puberty, they were considered fully responsible for their actions, capable of entering into a contract, able to own property, able to make decisions for themselves, etc. This age varies – it was typically the onset of menses for girls, twelve for boys. Islamic marriage is a contract first and foremost, especially in those days, and a person was given the right to annul that contract upon hitting the age of majority. Forced marriage is banned. In the past, people typically didn’t live past 40 or so, and throughout the ancient world it wasn’t uncommon for “children” to rule, join the military, own property, or be prosecuted (even put to death) for crimes.
Even up until the late 1800s, in the US the age of consent was actually 10 on average. Even nowadays, people can typically get married as young as 13 with parental consent – four years older than ‘Aisha was, but a 7th century nine-year-old was probably a LOT more mature than a modern 13-year-old
Again, nowadays the idea of a nine-year-old being able to consent to a marriage is BS. Times have changed. Life expectancies have risen. Also, in most of these “marriages,” Islamic law is NOT followed, and girls are forced into contracts without being given the chance to annul them (or being technically given the chance, but being forced into saying ‘yes’) (Also, girls were actually typically better educated in relation to their society in the early years of Islam than they are under modern Islam. Someone who isn’t aware of their rights also can’t consent properly). Abuse of a wife is also illegal under Islamic law, and a woman has the right to annul her marriage if she’s being mistreated, or not properly provided for (again, a law often not followed)